NEPH GUITAR

Discuss about the Nephilim, Nefilim, F.O.T.N. and other projects by Carl McCoy. Stay on-topic, all off-topic posts will either be deleted or moved to General Chat or elsewhere.

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Electrickgod
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NEPH GUITAR

Post by Electrickgod » Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:10 pm

I'm just sitting here, with guitar in hand, coffee on... and picking through the opening sequence to Watchman, admiring what a great arpeggiated guitar part it is. I've said for ages that FOTN is the best guitar band of the last 50 years, by a long shot, nothing comes close to what Paul & Peter composed and recorded.
My question is, who was the " Lead" guitarist and who was " Rhythm" with these two, who wrote the parts, particularly "The Watchman", and what was their musical relationship. Did they both play lead and rhythm, or did they each have a specific role?
Another question I have is the style that they play is so individual to them, and what has become known as "Gothic Rock Guitar"... there's an incredible technicality and a truly Theoretical Musical sense to these guitar parts, and I'm wondering what the influences are then informed guitar parts like this. Is it classical ? Or jazz? OR.... is this something particular to players and guitar styling of Celtic and Anglo culture? The chord choices, the sense of Melody, the mastery of complex chords & how they work with delay. This is also something I hear very much with Geordie Walker of Killing Joke, there is a common thread there, maybe one of you a bit closer to the source, could enlighten me?
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Shastiov
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Re: NEPH GUITAR

Post by Shastiov » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:15 pm

Your Interesting question your second one. I think Gothic arpeggios stem from three sources. Firstly, Middle age folksongs. Remember Gothic architecture in the eleven hundreds. The music at that time was meanly written for flute and bagpipes, monophonic instruments with a short scale of two or two and a half octaves. Songs were simple and repetitive of nature. Listen to the Carmina Burana songs from this period and you will get the picture. Secondly, the rising of the lute as an instrument in the early 1600s played an important role (John Dowland). One of my favourite Gothic guitarist is Mark Wheeler who quit his lute studies at the Guildhall School of Music in London to join the German based band Love Like Blood (a band, not the song). Check out their remarkable album Irony of Fate. Mark was motivated by Led Zeppelin's Jimmy Page which brings us to the third source: late 60s/early 70s rock veterans. They really did the ground work for later Gothic rock guitarists, including the use of effect pedals.

Do Nephilim songs stand out composition-wise? They do definitely in terms of arrangements (aural landscapes), but in terms of harmonics they follow common chord sequences. There is the odd key change (the intro of Fallen compared to the rest of the song). There are two in Shine (From A minor to D major to D minor), but that is not really exceptional (comparable to Adamo's Inch Allah from 1967 the first key change at least).


Hope this answers your question
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Shastiov
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Re: NEPH GUITAR

Post by Shastiov » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:12 pm

I mentioned Fallen but meant From the Fire.
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saegeas
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Re: NEPH GUITAR

Post by saegeas » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:34 am

Thank you both for your interesting posts, holy cow!... I have nothing to add, except that I believe Paul wrote the parts that he played, such as the delayed intro of The Watchmen (which I have a hell of a time playing on acoustic, trying to finger-pick the delay). There was a TV appearance where he plays it quite close to the camera, but I forsook YouTube and all things Google so you would need to search, no link is forthcoming. *cthulhu* Agree with Shastiov, the magic isn't in the harmonies/progressions per se, it's hard to put a finger on what makes the combo so awesome. It's a sound you can really sink your teeth into! Not sure it would be fair to attribute it mainly to Paul, or Carl, or ... b/c it seems to me that magic was never recaptured after the split. Heretical opinion around here perhaps, but there it is.
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Shastiov
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Re: NEPH GUITAR

Post by Shastiov » Mon May 17, 2021 2:58 pm

As ElectrikGod and seageas are struggling with reproducing the Watchman song, I decided to share my arrangement of this song. I am not a great performer (quite some glitches) as I prefer finding new arrangements to rehearsing until perfection. I once promised myself not to perform in public, but then again, I recorded the song on my own and the distribution is for educational purposes (one should not be too rigid in applying principles).

The sound quality is not optimal, not in the least because I prefer playing on cheap classical guitars (a £20 car boot sale in this case). I kind of feel sorry for a good quality guitar to be exposed to my aggressive way of fingerpicking.

I am not sure that I play the song in the right key. I always choose a key that suits the arrangement best. I tend to play the bass- and melody line simultaneously, a style I developed during my busker period in a distant past (London and Paris in summer, Milan, Rome and Barcelona in winter time). Those were the days …


Hope the video is inspirational for the guitar playing members of this forum.

https://youtu.be/c2jFrooxBHM
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Ngie
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Re: NEPH GUITAR

Post by Ngie » Sat May 22, 2021 12:33 pm

Electrickgod wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:10 pm
...
My question is, who was " Rhythm" ...
I believe Dr. Rythm stood for the rythm machine like the Doktor Avalanche of Sisters of Mercy.
https://www.boss.info/fr/products/dr-01s/
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markandre13
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Re: NEPH GUITAR

Post by markandre13 » Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:44 am

interesting. i play it like this

Code: Select all

|--------------- --------------0---
|--7-0-5-0-7-0-- --3-0-1-3-0-1--0--
|-------------0- ----------------0-
|--------------- ------------------
|--------------- ------------------
|-7-7-7-7-7----- -3-3-3-3----------
2x               2x
"It's probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in." -- Lyndon B. Johnson
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Shastiov
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Re: NEPH GUITAR

Post by Shastiov » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:47 pm

markandrfe13

You play the song in the key of D (or more correctly its relative minor B), I play it in E minor. Your is likely closer to the original. I always transpose a song so I can play it as close to the lower end of the fretboard using open chords preferably. Two reasons for that: it allows me to play a bass line using the lowest F and G (try playing a lower F with a melody line on the seventh position); secondly because on an acoustic guitar you create more volume in the lowest positions (the string length resonating is larger). My advice: choose a key that suits you, no one hears the difference accept when you play along with the original.
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saegeas
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Re: NEPH GUITAR

Post by saegeas » Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:59 am

Shastiov! I just caught up here, and listened to your video (yeah, I'm back on Google; what's a poor gal to do?...). There's much that interested me in your arrangement, many things. But I wanted to praise in particular your incorporation of parts of the vocal melody (it's not a particularly melodic piece vocally as it happens, but it still added a lot for me). Loved it! Thank you! (And it turns out the original is in E actually, always convenient!)

Frustratingly, I has no luck finding the TV performance I alluded to earlier. It had close-ups for how Paul played it...

It's interesting that the low string is not used at all during this section, and in fact C3 is the lowest note played (it's the bass that takes the A; it seems the guitar doesn't play the low A however). Another thing I noticed today is that it's E3, then C3, that get the most audible delay repeats; it sounds good if you can at least double-pick/pluck those. (I'm putting the fret numbers directly adjacent to indicate the delay effect.)

So, here's today's take on opening tab chez moi:

Code: Select all

|------2------------0---------0----- |----------------------------0-----
|----0------0-0-----------0-----0--- |------3-----0-----1-----1-0---0---
|---------------------------------0- |----0----[0]----0-----0---------0-
|--2-----22-----222---222--[2]------ |----------------------------------
|----------------------------------- |--3-----333---3-----3-------------
|----------------------------------- |----------------------------------
2x                                   2x

edit: I am finding a lot of similar sounds in Dream Pop genre, which I'm really digging at the moment.
This playlist was recommended to me (but I listen to a culled version, only about 1/3 of the songs).
I love Cricket Songs and Last Day on Earth (not for guitar in those cases however).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWJUIOPt9d4
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