Respect
Moderators: Morphic, Blue Angel, The Fallen Ones
- Lord Mureth
- Nephilim
- Posts: 2726
- Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:02 pm
- Contact:
Look at it this way. I make goff clothes for a living. If people don't like them, then don't buy em; fine. If people don't like them and want to say so, that's okay too - I put product out the same as a recording artist. But if they don't like them, I don't think it give them any right to criticise me as a person. Only those that know me have that right.
- wild bill buttock
- Nephilim
- Posts: 2571
- Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:00 pm
- Contact:
But what if you decided one day to not make Goff clothes and instead to only put out a nice line of yellow velour leisure suits. Then went on your web site moaning and whinging because none of your old customers were buying them and were in fact moaning about it and reminisising fondly about the good old days when you made black velvet frocks?Lord Mureth wrote:Look at it this way. I make goff clothes for a living. If people don't like them, then don't buy em; fine. If people don't like them and want to say so, that's okay too - I put product out the same as a recording artist. But if they don't like them, I don't think it give them any right to criticise me as a person. Only those that know me have that right.
Would it not make you a prime bell end? Not personally but professionally. As in "He's a really nice geezer and I've a lot of time for him but ditching his profitable line in goff clothes for chav wear makes him a right twat"
..and my ccok's a bloater
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/TheDarkRoomUK
http://www.facebook.com/ClubDawnrazor
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/TheDarkRoomUK
http://www.facebook.com/ClubDawnrazor
If you say that they've got to do well what they do, I agree, of course. My point was that they've got to - and must - do well what they want to/need/must do; not what the general public wants them to do.wild bill buttock wrote:If as an ordinary Joe, you were to do your job poorly or in a way that no-one wanted to buy that which you are selling, then you'd soon starve I'm afraid, and it's no good blame-ing it on the consumer for being wrong.squishy wrote:And here I think you're talking perfect bollockswild bill buttock wrote:Likewise when an artist becomes a professional, their job is to entertain. They become product exactly the same as a tin of beans. If you add a lump of dog shit to your recipe for beans , no one is gonna buy them are they? (apart from maybe some Germans).
Btw, I don't think that artists are any kind of an elite, that they're chosen or cursed, that they are more sensitive or less sensible than anyone else, or in any substantial way different from a regular joe.
Don't get me wrong without the maverick artists we'd be cursed with the terminally mundane but unfortunately society in general doesn't see it that way, they want something safe and will only join the revolution after the victory is won. Apathy is the greatest ally of capatalism.
I don't believe one could - or, indeed, should try particularly hard to - make an easy living writing, painting, playing, etc. Some succeed here, the vast majority doesn't. And there's quite a lot at stake here, too - too much, perhaps, to take a risk.
I guess such a view would make the whole idea of being an artist much less glamorous: suddenly art becomes quite an unappealing thing to indulge in, for most people at least, and the myth starts to dissolve
(Speaking from personal experience, btw)
remember what the doorknob said
I most heartily concur. Watching the end product of someone's work, then flinging wild associations about this person based on said product is, well, bollocks. big, sweaty one.Lord Mureth wrote:Look at it this way. I make goff clothes for a living. If people don't like them, then don't buy em; fine. If people don't like them and want to say so, that's okay too - I put product out the same as a recording artist. But if they don't like them, I don't think it give them any right to criticise me as a person. Only those that know me have that right.
BTW where can I see your creations mate ? (Sorry if there's already a subject about this !)
Fundraiser. You know, it's like Hellraiser, but without the Cenobites, the blood and all that.
IN NOMINE NEMO !
IN NOMINE NEMO !
- Lord Mureth
- Nephilim
- Posts: 2726
- Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:02 pm
- Contact:
Oh crap... that's the spring range fcuked then.wild bill buttock wrote:
But what if you decided one day to not make Goff clothes and instead to only put out a nice line of yellow velour leisure suits. Then went on your web site moaning and whinging because none of your old customers were buying them and were in fact moaning about it and reminisising fondly about the good old days when you made black velvet frocks?
Would it not make you a prime bell end? Not personally but professionally. As in "He's a really nice geezer and I've a lot of time for him but ditching his profitable line in goff clothes for chav wear makes him a right twat"
But yes, in the scenario you've outlined above, I would indeed be a prime bell end. However, if I did the above but did NOT moan about it, then I would not be the aforementioned appendage; not if I thought it was the right thing to do.
Right then, where was I? Oh yes, about to cancel the order for yellow velour...
- Lord Mureth
- Nephilim
- Posts: 2726
- Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:02 pm
- Contact:
- Lord Mureth
- Nephilim
- Posts: 2726
- Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:02 pm
- Contact:
- Echo Barley
- Moonchild
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:27 pm
Re:
[
Btw, I don't think that artists are any kind of an elite, that they're chosen or cursed, that they are more sensitive or less sensible than anyone else, or in any substantial way different from a regular joe.[/quote]
some of them could do with hearing that, imo.
As for changing your art...if you do, why does that make you a prime bell end ? I change my art. IMO it's called personal development. You wouldn't expect me to be the same person as I was 10 years ago, and I'm not, so why expect me to produce the same stuff ? ( as an example of course, I'm not making this about me, lol )
If you said..."I will do only what makes money," then I'd have to question how happy you were doing it. That's known as selling out. I'll never make any money doing art, because I'm not prepared to try and create what other people want to see, so that rules me out of any art-based job like doing book or album covers ( quite apart from not being good enough ). Or perhaps I've sold out because I don't make my art work for me.....
The whole life thing: knowing you're alive is easy. Knowing where is harder. "Life is but a dream".....well I should know, I was rowing a boat upstream in last night's episode of wyrdness.......I have true dreams, but is what I see there the truth ? If you want a straight and easy answer to that one, I'd go ask the white rabbit.
Btw, I don't think that artists are any kind of an elite, that they're chosen or cursed, that they are more sensitive or less sensible than anyone else, or in any substantial way different from a regular joe.[/quote]
some of them could do with hearing that, imo.
As for changing your art...if you do, why does that make you a prime bell end ? I change my art. IMO it's called personal development. You wouldn't expect me to be the same person as I was 10 years ago, and I'm not, so why expect me to produce the same stuff ? ( as an example of course, I'm not making this about me, lol )
If you said..."I will do only what makes money," then I'd have to question how happy you were doing it. That's known as selling out. I'll never make any money doing art, because I'm not prepared to try and create what other people want to see, so that rules me out of any art-based job like doing book or album covers ( quite apart from not being good enough ). Or perhaps I've sold out because I don't make my art work for me.....
The whole life thing: knowing you're alive is easy. Knowing where is harder. "Life is but a dream".....well I should know, I was rowing a boat upstream in last night's episode of wyrdness.......I have true dreams, but is what I see there the truth ? If you want a straight and easy answer to that one, I'd go ask the white rabbit.
Re: Respect
this is why I was so miffed at 'rescues' initial posts on this thread. Instead of their intention of creation of this thread as being a nice thing and a tribute with details about Paul and his music, they didn't post any insite into Pauls work, they instead used it as an excuse to post insulting stuff about Carl, an outward slap at Carl but also a backhanded one at Paul using his name for that purpose and including such stuff in a thread that is supose to be dedicated to him, and disrespecting other members too by speaking like their contributions ment nothing. I found it quite disgusting..Anath wrote: Praise is due to all of them and let Paul have it when it comes.
I also don't like that fact that if anything thing slanderous is said about anyone it is quickly censored UNLESS its about CARL, 'Rescues' posts and others in the past as an example. Its one thing to post news or honest facts about something someone has done wrong. But just calling someone a loser the way it was done etcetcetc.... This sort of hypocracy makes me want to hurl chunks.
Twist of fate wont give me a break and myself I'm slow and tired ~ COC
Re: Respect
Also I don't understand why there is so much harping on the original band getting back together. Life and people EVOLVE , it was a special moment in time, why try to relive it? You can't go back. And its disrespectful to all the musicians to expect them to do so, as if what they are choosing to do now has no value and where they are now is not where they should be. Why should people be expected to play the same music/be in the same job they were 20 years ago??
Also I smell an air of disrespect when referring to FOTN and the various musician who have come and gone, as if they had no right to be there, to the point of calling them 'frauds' in the one poll. I would hate to think that the musicians that choose to play were there under duress! Even if they are just 'hired' they are not there to profane the music (even if sometimes it may unintentionally sound that way). I know if it was me and I choose to join a band I would be doing my best and not want to be considered a fraud.
After all orchestras and such change their musicians all the time.
I myself would like to see respect for what something is, not disrespectfully expecting it to be something its not.
Also I smell an air of disrespect when referring to FOTN and the various musician who have come and gone, as if they had no right to be there, to the point of calling them 'frauds' in the one poll. I would hate to think that the musicians that choose to play were there under duress! Even if they are just 'hired' they are not there to profane the music (even if sometimes it may unintentionally sound that way). I know if it was me and I choose to join a band I would be doing my best and not want to be considered a fraud.
After all orchestras and such change their musicians all the time.
I myself would like to see respect for what something is, not disrespectfully expecting it to be something its not.
Twist of fate wont give me a break and myself I'm slow and tired ~ COC
- Blue Angel
- Nephilim
- Posts: 3062
- Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:52 pm
- Contact:
Re: Respect
Good points Bau and well made...
I think most of you know where I stand by now...
If anyone reads anything that they think is "out of order" (subjective, I know) then all they have to do is flag it up and it will be "dealt with" one way or the other.
As a moderator I have opinions too and cannot always be relied upon to see what is out of order but I am certainly happy to have a debate...
I think most of you know where I stand by now...
If anyone reads anything that they think is "out of order" (subjective, I know) then all they have to do is flag it up and it will be "dealt with" one way or the other.
As a moderator I have opinions too and cannot always be relied upon to see what is out of order but I am certainly happy to have a debate...
Fields of the Neffalump
Jism!
Jism!
-
- Nephilim
- Posts: 3278
- Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:00 pm
Re: Respect
Bau wrote:Also I don't understand why there is so much harping on the original band getting back together. Life and people EVOLVE , it was a special moment in time, why try to relive it? You can't go back. And its disrespectful to all the musicians to expect them to do so, as if what they are choosing to do now has no value and where they are now is not where they should be. Why should people be expected to play the same music/be in the same job they were 20 years ago??
Also I smell an air of disrespect when referring to FOTN and the various musician who have come and gone, as if they had no right to be there, to the point of calling them 'frauds' in the one poll. I would hate to think that the musicians that choose to play were there under duress! Even if they are just 'hired' they are not there to profane the music (even if sometimes it may unintentionally sound that way). I know if it was me and I choose to join a band I would be doing my best and not want to be considered a fraud.
After all orchestras and such change their musicians all the time.
I myself would like to see respect for what something is, not disrespectfully expecting it to be something its not.
personally I would be horrified if I was still doing now to stay job I was 20 years ago,its human nature to move on + take up new challenges,very rarely is it natural to stay static.The original FOTN line up were a part of an evolution of the band which includes all incarnations,every person who has played with FOTN has a part in the bands history.I'm happy to look forward to future ventures + keep the past as the past
Re: Respect
OK. Sounds as honest as it should be. But I do see some problems here.Blue Angel wrote:Good points Bau and well made...
I think most of you know where I stand by now...
If anyone reads anything that they think is "out of order" (subjective, I know) then all they have to do is flag it up and it will be "dealt with" one way or the other.
As a moderator I have opinions too and cannot always be relied upon to see what is out of order but I am certainly happy to have a debate...
It seems that there are two quite different kinds of people who ask the mods to edit or delete posts - the DR folks and the representatives of the Powers that Be. I don't think the status of the two groups is or indeed could be exactly the same and in effect the situation is rather complex. The appeals to the mods from within DR do not particularly worry me, of course - those from the "external" influences, however, most certainly do.
I understand that those Powers are not only present, but actively present (in a covert way) here. I guess their active presence must be more or less accepted as it is. Still, if a post gets deleted or edited or a thread closed, could we at least know who pressurizes the mods into making those changes? Otheriwse it is not just censorship, but grossly unfair one too
remember what the doorknob said
- Blue Angel
- Nephilim
- Posts: 3062
- Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:52 pm
- Contact:
Re: Respect
Good point but sadly not always possible to divulge the exact nature of who has made the complaint...
At this point you either trust the moderator or you don't, no different from any other forum...
All I can say, will say, is that each thread is treated on an individual basis, based on the content of the thread, the nature of the complaint and the context by which the complaint has arisen.
The "John Carter" thread stays... why? I took that decision because I felt that the request to have the thread removed was a form of censorsorship and I, for one, would like to retain the openness of the forum. This is what we are after all, I trust people enough to take the thread in a different direction now that some form of "official" statement has been made, albeit in private to me.
On previous occasions threads or posts have been removed/deleted mainly due to their defamotory or inaccurate nature. On this occasion the "campaign" such as it is, as far as I can see, is not defamotory in its nature. It is inaccurate however hence on this occasion an "official" statement is what is required to set the record straight...
If that makes sense
At this point you either trust the moderator or you don't, no different from any other forum...
All I can say, will say, is that each thread is treated on an individual basis, based on the content of the thread, the nature of the complaint and the context by which the complaint has arisen.
The "John Carter" thread stays... why? I took that decision because I felt that the request to have the thread removed was a form of censorsorship and I, for one, would like to retain the openness of the forum. This is what we are after all, I trust people enough to take the thread in a different direction now that some form of "official" statement has been made, albeit in private to me.
On previous occasions threads or posts have been removed/deleted mainly due to their defamotory or inaccurate nature. On this occasion the "campaign" such as it is, as far as I can see, is not defamotory in its nature. It is inaccurate however hence on this occasion an "official" statement is what is required to set the record straight...
If that makes sense
Fields of the Neffalump
Jism!
Jism!
-
- Nephilim
- Posts: 3278
- Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:00 pm
Re: Respect
Marduk wrote:Well I guess you have to separate first:
a) musicians who created original sons
b) who were told how to play those
I bet most are playing something they didn´t compose;
doing it best possible way, and a bit atleast, own way. Respect.
Fraud mabee a person who talks, walks, dress, and acts like original.
Or is hired to do that.
Shall we respect a similacrum from Disneyland?
sound words indeed
Re: Respect
The reference 'frauds of the nephilim' is to a thread a long time ago , where I came up with the term ' frauds of the nephilim' as a joke name for a FOTN tribute band, it was just a 'jokey' reference to some banter way back when..... some of us here like to have a bit of ' banter' rather than treat it as our personal blog.Bau wrote: Also I smell an air of disrespect when referring to FOTN and the various musician who have come and gone, as if they had no right to be there, to the point of calling them 'frauds' i.
Theres no disrespect to anyone.... Ive actually got better things to do than spending all my time over analysing and making pointless speculation about members of a band which is but a shadow of its former self.
Banter on DR ? But just a distant memory .......
cover his eyes, so that he not over-analyse
- weebleswobble
- BayWatcher
- Posts: 4338
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:48 am
Re: Respect
Those with a sense of humour bypass should just blankety blank
The first bit sounds like Bruce Wayne, and the second bit sounds like Batman.
- Blue Angel
- Nephilim
- Posts: 3062
- Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:52 pm
- Contact:
Re: Respect
Don't take it personally Moo... I think Bau is making a wider point about what is deemed worthy of censorship and what is not deemed worthy of censorship. I think the point is that on some occasions it seems to be acceptable to denegrate certain aspects of FOTN - the Frauds poll being an example - but on other occasions it is not deemed ok to criticise or comment negatively.
My point has always been that the forum is subjectively moderated and this is down to time available to moderate i.e. don't have time to read every thread etc. and also the sometimes reactive nature of moderation... i.e. someone complains, a moderator reacts / no-one complains, no-one reacts...
To be honest we've been here before with this discussion and to be honest I've been here with Bau with this discussion before as well. This is how the forum is, this is how it works and Bau no likey.
And then there is of course the age old diferences about the humourless, Carl worshippers vs... well... we don't seem to have a term for the others but I'm sure someone will come up with one... you probably know what I mean big man!
My point has always been that the forum is subjectively moderated and this is down to time available to moderate i.e. don't have time to read every thread etc. and also the sometimes reactive nature of moderation... i.e. someone complains, a moderator reacts / no-one complains, no-one reacts...
To be honest we've been here before with this discussion and to be honest I've been here with Bau with this discussion before as well. This is how the forum is, this is how it works and Bau no likey.
And then there is of course the age old diferences about the humourless, Carl worshippers vs... well... we don't seem to have a term for the others but I'm sure someone will come up with one... you probably know what I mean big man!
Fields of the Neffalump
Jism!
Jism!