Should Fallen have ever been released?

Discuss about the albums and videos the band has released over the years. The band we are talking about here is of course F.O.T.N. and not side-projects, similar bands etc. Please use other sections if you want to talk about the weather.

Moderators: Morphic, Blue Angel, The Fallen Ones

Should Fallen have ever been released?

Yes
50
72%
No
19
28%
 
Total votes: 69
gilgamesh
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Post by gilgamesh » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:33 pm

...but if they hadn't released it we'd all be clamouring to find out what it was like as there would have been rumours and speculation about that material.

Personally I'd rather have it and make up my own mind than not have had it all. It almost certainly helps to explain Carl's more recent slow progress as he may well be taking a lot of trouble to make sure no half finished material gets released again.

Listening to Fallen actually makes me more understanding about the time taken to getting other stuff right, MS could have been awful if released half baked.

However I do have some sympathy with Jungle if they weren't getting the input they needed- they are a commercial organisation with overheads to pay.

I disagree about Hollow Doll, I think that one showed signs of great potential with a little more work.
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Elisium Fields
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Post by Elisium Fields » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:48 am

At the end of the day, 'Fallen' with it's obvious faults, was still a FOTN release.

If Jungle had not issued it then some (if not all) of the tracks would be doing the ciruit on the weeding and sharing pages, probably in lesser quality.

I must admit that when I first heard it that I was very disappointed however, as time has gone on I have mellowed slightly and accept it for what it is........a collection of the pieces which were 'left behind'......some of then bad and some quite good.
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angry bob
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Post by angry bob » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:05 pm

Elisium Fields wrote:...a collection of the pieces which were 'left behind'......some of then bad and some quite good.


'left behind'?? :? I thought that McCoy was working on a new record that was supposed to contain those tracks in their developed form.
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Badlander
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Post by Badlander » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:15 pm

It'd have been sad indeed if we'd never been able to hear these tracks in one form or another. But the way they got released was just wrong, plain and simple. There's a difference between these demos in general and Fallen as an album in particular.
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Post by morphicfields » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:13 pm

I guess the question is: "How should Jungle have released those tracks?" How could they have done it any different?
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Badlander
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Post by Badlander » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:31 pm

Better packaging to begin with.
Then, not pretend it's a brand new album when it's obviously a collection of unfinished material. "The lost tracks" or something similar would have been more appropriate.
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Post by morphicfields » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:47 pm

Very true. It should have been labelled as a collection of demo material clearly and concisely. And Trees and Darkcell should have been left off and stayed as the single release that they were intended to be.
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Post by Untitled » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:01 pm

Without One More Nightmare and Darkcell that had been properly released before, but with Red 777, Sensorium, the instrumental Deeper Deepest Dub (and even Chaocracy if Beggars Banquets copyright allows), and labelled as "The Fallen Tracks" with mention of (approximate) recording dates and involved personnal for each song, it could have made a great semi-official bootleg.

It could also have been released as a limited 2 CD edition with the complete Roskilde Festival 2001 intead of the 1988 London extracts.

Then the "Genesis and Revelation" box could had been reduced to an enhanced CD containing one single Power remix and the 3 early demo tracks for the audio part and the early videos on CD ROM (their quality doesn't justify a DVD edition), completed with MP3 versions of early low quality live tracks as Senseless, The Comeback, Shotgun...

In this form it would have been more coherent.
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Elisium Fields
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Post by Elisium Fields » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:59 am

Untitled wrote:Without One More Nightmare and Darkcell that had been properly released before, but with Red 777, Sensorium, the instrumental Deeper Deepest Dub (and even Chaocracy if Beggars Banquets copyright allows), and labelled as "The Fallen Tracks" with mention of (approximate) recording dates and involved personnal for each song, it could have made a great semi-official bootleg.

It could also have been released as a limited 2 CD edition with the complete Roskilde Festival 2001 intead of the 1988 London extracts.

Then the "Genesis and Revelation" box could had been reduced to an enhanced CD containing one single Power remix and the 3 early demo tracks for the audio part and the early videos on CD ROM (their quality doesn't justify a DVD edition), completed with MP3 versions of early low quality live tracks as Senseless, The Comeback, Shotgun...

In this form it would have been more coherent.
Untitled, they would of been sooooooooooooooooooooooo much better relaeses in the format you suggested. (If only)
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Lord Mureth
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Post by Lord Mureth » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:43 am

Hmmm.. I was very tempted to vote NO; in terms of production etc it's by far the worst thing McCoy has ever been 'involved' in. But having said that there are SOME great songs on it; the DTTW trilogy is undeniably great, though it does cry out for a better recording - and the editing is appalling; you can almost hear the Jungle chappie cut and pasting!

But the reason I'm glad it was released is that I think it actually spurred McCoy into action. I reckon he was so narked with the whole Fallen debacle that that's what prompted him to pull his finger out, and release Mourning Sun in the relatively short time of 3 years!
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squishy
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Post by squishy » Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:39 am

Sure it should have been released - as a collection of

1. probably quite advanced demos (DTTW/TWWW/TT, Subsanity);
2. very rough demos (Hollow Doll)
3. demo song sketches (Deeper) that in a blurry sort of way point towards what their finished versions might one day have been
4. very rough demo song sketches (Fallen) tht by no means are any proper songs
5. useless stop-gaps of sound space (Premonition)
. . . and a previously released single (One More Nightmare, Dark Cell) that doesn't belong with any of the previous, either stylistically or conceptually.

(Not that the previous tracks are consistent or arranged in any way. They aren't: the collection is random.)

All this said, DTTW/TWWW/TT, Subsanity and Hollow Doll are wonderful tracks even as they are. Deeper and Fallen seem to have some nice stuff, too. And I quite liked the single as a single *smoking*
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Post by Poison Ivy » Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:58 am

....after SBE I do not feel such a burning guilt while listen to 'Fallen', it is perfect compilation for a car driving :wink:
*cthulhu* However unfinished it is it is still Carl emanation in it *cthulhu*
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Morphic
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Post by Morphic » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:27 am

It really should go down as the worst marketing mistake of Jungle Records career... I like Carl, really i do, but as a mate of mine put it: WTF??!! I paid good money for this shite!??!... and funnily enough... he would not pay for an original copy of MS just in case it was just as bad!
And after all this? Nothing. Nothing at all.
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Lord Mureth
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Post by Lord Mureth » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:47 am

squishy wrote:4. very rough demo song sketches (Fallen) tht by no means are any proper songs
s'funny, I thought 'Fallen' was the best, most complete song; and the best produced, on it!!! :?: :shock:

Has a very Zoon/NIN feel to it.
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NorthernNephilim
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Post by NorthernNephilim » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:45 am

I can´t vote for a "Yes" or "No". I just buyed "Fallen" (the limited Box) to complete my FOTN collection. But i think the bad mastering (OK these are all unfinished tracks - no final masters) the bad artwork (nothing to compare to sheer faith) because of jungle´s politics doesn´t fit with Carls mind.

but some parts are there which rise up at the follow up Mourning Sun ... so its interesting to listen to it.
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Blindman
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Post by Blindman » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:58 pm

Its not my favourite Album in the world but I do have to say it's better than Zoon
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Mekong_Delta
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Post by Mekong_Delta » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:30 pm

It`s a part of my collection, that`s all.
For me Fallen is the worst F.o.t.N Album.

But it`s a part of all and should be.

I`ve voted (a low) :roll: YES
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Rorschach
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Post by Rorschach » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:18 am

I'm sure I'm not the only one who bought "Fallen" because the special edition had a second disc that had some live stuff from the "Forever Remain" era.

To be honest, I'm not sure that I've actually listened to this album, even though it's part of my colection :!:

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Lord Mureth
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Post by Lord Mureth » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:35 pm

That's what the 'Forever and Ever' bootleg is for, innit? :wink: :lol:
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Ngie
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Post by Ngie » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:55 pm

What's the motivation for such a question?

Apart from CMC's strategy for FOTN's carreer,

(The DBD trilogy in itself could have made an album and he/them/whoever could have kept the rest of the material for another one, but the Jungle Label was putting him/them/whoever in a hurry ... and enoph said we've already got the rest of the story)

FOTN would have missed Fallen terribly if we had been compelled to do without :roll: .
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