What has gone wrong?

[squishy]

I've recently revisited all the classic line-up albums - as well as Zoon, MS and even Fallen. And you know what, I still think it's cracking stuff, all of it, inlcuding the reviled late 1990s demos (some of which are stiill among the best things I've heard in my life). And I keep thinking, what's happened? What's gone so horribly wrong? What's been going on since 2005?

I don't need to get an album every two or three years. Truth be told, I don't really need to get any albums at all - thank goodness I'm not a music addict anymore, and there are way more important things in my life than music/art/poetry etc., no matter how incredibly good the latter may be. But the ugly enigma remains - and so does the concern for a fellow human being.

[Kostas]

The only thing that has gone wrong is that the so called "big" bands got lazy or lost their interest. As much as I love the "big" bands and desperately hope for new releases, I don't feel that there is not any good music around. I am a music addict and thank god there are plenty of fantastic bands around - new & old - that make great music. Does this feel in the gap? I don't know , but it sure offers a lot of excitement

[squishy]

I don't believe in laziness. It's one the weirdest and most abstract concepts I've come ever across. Also, could you imagine a lazy perfectionist?

As far as the lack of interest goes, that would be perfectly OK. The trouble is, if one has no interest, one just does nothing. No need to promise loads and loads of things, to sketch out grandiose plans, etc. Compare, say, the Psychedelic Furs' zombie-like activity in the 21st century with what's been happening in the Neph camp since MS.

[bjornrazor]

.

[squishy]

Carl really isn't the creative mastermind that some rose-tinted glass wearing fans would think.

Yawn. We've already been there, and more than once. No need to go back to that dreary old place.

[CyberAndy]

In my opinion much of it comes down to ego, control, money and song-writing ability ....
With Bands the main 'focus' is always on the vocalist - although frequently they aren't the ones who actually write the tunes. Bands split up for a variety of reasons. The members of the Bands frequently think people will be very interested in their Post-Band output - but often this isn't the case to any commercially viable level.

Obviously the name of the Band can be lucrative from a point of playing live and pulling in the cash. If you have all previous members of a Band, but with a different vocalist, or the vocalist and different other members - to most people the 'vocalist' version 'is' the Band.

There is then the 'pressure' of if you release new material worrying that it will never be as good as / live up to your earlier 'classic' output.

SO ... at the end of the day if you are the vocalist and have the 'name' of the Band, playing a few Gigs here and there and headlining some well paid German Festivals isn't a bad lifestyle ....

[Invisible Goth]

John Carter left - co-writer & sole musician on MS and when he left so did the creativity and drive.
Tom Edwards left and was closest to the 'Paul Wright' sound, now doing very well with Adam Ant.
Snake has also decided to quit & is with Gary Numan.
Gav King has even started a new band.

Carl really isn't the creative mastermind that some rose-tinted glass wearing fans would think.
If he was where is the proof? There isn't any and words are cheap.
Porhaps the management have not advised the band properly though SMT are making successful waves.
Maybe the management do not give a fcuk and at least FotN has been a good stepping stone for SMT & Edwards?

Begs the question: Why haven't 'the uvvers' waded in to stop carl single-handedly wrecking the reputation of THEIR band?

I'd call a court case "stepping in"

Carl single-handedly wrecked the reputation of THEIR band? Hardly.

[Invisible Goth]

One more thing, Snake isn't with Numan anymore either, he quit

[squishy]

With Bands the main 'focus' is always on the vocalist - although frequently they aren't the ones who actually write the tunes.

I don't know to what extent McCoy was involved in the writing process in the classic line-up times. But give Zoon, MS or even Fallen a listen or two, and it's crystal clear he's infinitely more than just a pretty voice. Or, for a really painful experience, compare any classic line-up album with anything Rubicon recorded.

(It's not a stab at Rubicon, btw. I rather like them. And Delany was a very good singer. And yet...)

[squishy]

Also, the idea that the raison d'etre of the new line-up is filthy lucre doesn't make any sense.

If McCoy wanted to make money, he'd be playing original line-up reunion gigs now. And if he wanted to get still richer in an easy way, he'd have forgotten about 'artistic differences' and all that jazz and be now very busy recording a reunion album with the Wrights, Yates and Pettitt. Look at Brendan Perry who two years ago would swear he'd never ever record anything with the pseudo-artistic, talentless and utterly boring media star Lisa Gerrard had become.

[markandre13]

I'd be more than happy to buy a new overpriced and lousy demo once a year by the old band...

[NorthernNephilim]

I'd be more than happy to buy a new overpriced and lousy demo once a year by the old band...

since Eden House, NFD, Peter Yates DEFINITELY are releasing something it should be possible to grab something from the old favours.

btw my sinking interest to CMC due to the current style of running FOTN: gigs with no gigs, unknown state who is really in the band... there are enough more artists around worht listening, some good goth bands running their pledge / kickstarter campaigns which are worth investing some of hard earned money - for live gigs the same!

maybe doing NFD gig except for another gigs for some other with 100% predictable setlist.

[gilgamesh]

yep, it is hard to maintain interest when nothing is going on. I've been a firm supporter of all the UK shows since the Astoria "comeback" but it is getting ever harder to get much enthusiasm for the same old setlist played largely by folks who turn up for the money. Would I like another album? Probably but only if true to the original Neph style, MS was just about close enough but anything more metal influenced should revert to the Nefilim moniker.

[gilgamesh]

Another thought since I pressed submit: it must be hard to get musicians to play live properly for just a few shows earning a small amount of money. It can't be worth putting in the hours of practice and rehearsals to get it right. So McCoy will find it increasingly difficult to recruit folks of the calibre to play correctly with the complexity and depth of these old songs, without being a proper band and with no right to any royalties or other incentive.

I do think he has largely wasted the opportunity in 2007 to really re-energise FOTN and create some genuine excitement and momentum.

[squishy]

Another thought since I pressed submit: it must be hard to get musicians to play live properly for just a few shows earning a small amount of money. It can't be worth putting in the hours of practice and rehearsals to get it right. So McCoy will find it increasingly difficult to recruit folks of the calibre to play correctly with the complexity and depth of these old songs, without being a proper band and with no right to any royalties or other incentive.

There's plenty of die-hard FotN fans out there, many of whom are musicians. But you're right, the 'calibre' thing is going to be a problem here.

The truth is, to really go on the way he should to fully deliver on the promise, McCoy would need either:

1. a proper band. Which may be very difficult indeed. It's nearly impossible to create a cohesive and tight genuine band from a scratch. These things take time, and they require so much more than just a collection of good musicians - but probably just a skeletal crew could do in his case just as well (Brendan Perry might be a good example here); or

2. at least one genuine collaborator, really involved in the creative process. Such a thing could work very well, too (think of the Cult)

Working totally alone is a terrible strain.
But then we don't really know whether he works alone or not. Truth be told, we know nothing whatsoever regarding the role his hired hands actually play.

I do think he has largely wasted the opportunity in 2007 to really re-energise FOTN and create some genuine excitement and momentum.

I'm not sure who or what wasted it. But yes, that's the gist of it. The years 2007-2008 were an opportunity that largely got wasted.

[redshaman]

I think i'm in a minority here in saying that i believe the fluid line-up
makes it more unpredictable, fresh and open to the unknown.
I also think that Carl has never made a line-up change for the worse.
I loved the playing of John Carter & Tom Edwards and i'm glad their
contribution to the band and talent was documented on Ceromonies,but i reckon
Snake was just as good with a different style,and Andy James gave the
songs a whole new feel to them on that last European tour.
I would never want to go back to the classic line-up personally,thats just me,
but if Andy James did bugger off,with or without one of Carl's motorbike boots
up his arse,then i'd get Paul Miles back in the band.When he toured with Carl
on the Nefilim tours and the year 2000 festival shows he sounded just as fantastic on the
Fields material as he did on the Zoon stuff.and he'd sound great on the Mourning Sun
tracks,but i doubt Carl would do that, and in many ways id be happy in him just moving forwards,as long as that included new albums/EPs and more UK shows.

Can anyone please tell me what actually happened to the Sleepers EP ??? I think i've read that
Carl gave an explanation but i'm not sure what that is.

[ThomasB]

I
Obviously the name of the Band can be lucrative from a point of playing live and pulling in the cash. If you have all previous members of a Band, but with a different vocalist, or the vocalist and different other members - to most people the 'vocalist' version 'is' the Band.

…With the usual exceptions of course. Who remembers that Deep Purple made three albums before Gillian and the others, who churned out a bunch of classics before Gillian buggered off and Coverdale did a pretty good job with a completely different voice ? Other cases in hand : Kirilan Camera (Elena Fossi is their best vocalist ever, even though some still grumbles about "back in the days"), Black Sabbath (Gillian/Dio), AC/DC of course… Technology now also allows to have "hired" vocalists, à la Massive Attack…

[NorthernNephilim]

Can anyone please tell me what actually happened to the Sleepers EP ??? I think i've read that

Chuck Norris has a promo copy of this ... or what might be finished earlier .. BER Airport or new Neph songs ?

[gilgamesh]

Rather than letting FOTN just fizzle out maybe he should just call it a day, no promises of new stuff and exciting years ahead. Do the odd show here and there perhaps but otherwise acknowledge that it is finally done.

[Ngie]

From my point of view :
the original line-up was sort of an entity, a fusional one like family. They created the FOTN sound and identity of them 5.
It's like a child's dream achievement. You can never replace that.
After the split of 1992 it's never been a band again in the alchemic -and innocent(?)- cohesion they had. No offense to anybody just a statement of life going on with its turns or bounce.
I've been missing the 5 FOTN former entity and even if I've given an ear to some of their relative side projects since then my attention's stayed focused on the central part as Carl.
An other entity closely pasted to FOTN is Richard Stanley because of his involvment as visuals maker.
I can understand all of those individuals have their own life plans which may be far from my «cosmic look» on it. Now with hindsight I can hear haunting words such as 'pointless' and 'belonging to the past' , but I don't care as nothing in my life's sounded as lively and close to my heart making me know about things as FOTN.
I have to admit I'm somewhat feeling one with this band, as part of a vision including us. We were belonging to a dream, manifesting it, making it real.
I've been feeling fusional with Carl (well let's say with some idea or image of him ok). On a spiritual or imaginative level we've not always got on well and i was at turns happy, upset, even angry, disappointed and delighted. With the Internet I've been acknowledged that other people were going into the same mental things as me, and since it became clear that there would be no way back from Carl I've integrated it as the journey, each people's lonely journey.
I'm happy to have had the opportunity to meet you Dawnrazor buddies of different countries, some once even for real. Thanks to the Internet, to forum administrators & owners giving their time money and skills to keep it alive.
I'm not expecting anything more for now. As for the Sleepers e.p. Who knows in which sea of doubts it's dormant. Perhaps if we all take a deep breath and cross fingers very strongly it may come again to the surface..